I agree natalie, bigger water changes do not extend the cycling, actually, it shortens it

this is cycling: at first: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are all 0...after fish is added (2 at the most, say danios) or if a fishless cycle (established tank gravel bed, about a half to a pound of gravel is added to new tank), the ammonia begins to rise, usually no higher than 4.0, but it can get to 8.0 which is fatal for fish, but this 8.0 ppm is rare, usually hovers around 4 ppm for about one week to ten days, then the ammonia begins to lower as the nitrite rises to about 3-4 ppm, as the nitrite rises the ammonia will go down to 0 and stay there (in a healthy tank, it will remain at 0 for the life of the tank); as the nitrie rises, in very small levels, the nitrate will rise too...usually overnight, the nitrite will drop completely to 0, and the nitrate will remain at around 20 ppm (on average) - bingo, cycled tank. That is the average cycle.

Now during the cycle, we as fishkeepers must feed the fish so the fish poop will begin the process of the ammonia rising. Understand, it's not the fish themselves that begin the process, it's the fish poop that does (fish poop = ammonia). Now until the good bacteria in the tank can begin to feed off the ammonia (good bacteria being nitrosomonas that oxidizes ammonia into nitrite as a metabolic process) the bad bacteria is overwhelming the tank, so this is where human hands delve in via water testing.

If the water test shows very high ppm, say above 4 ppm, a good 40% ater change will help neutralize the ammonia or deplete the fish poop in the water column; if the ppm is 50% or above, do a 50% water change or more; if it is 2 ppm, do a 25% water change etc (I Hope you get the drift).

In other words, let's say you dive into a swimming pool, and the water is 75% chlorine (ammonia), how would you feel...not very good, right? So what would you do immediately, you would take as much water out in order to put new fresh water in in order to dilute the ammonia that is in the pool. Well the same reasoning applies to a tank of water...too much ammonia (fish poop; leftover food etc) is in the water or water column, so what should you do - exactly, you take as much water as you can out of the aquarium in order so the tank will have as much fresh water in the tank as to dillute or neutralize the ammonia or nitrite or nitrate.

Simple reasoning. Just because the fish are swimming do not mean the fish are comfortable. During cycling, a fish(s) goes through much hardship - the reason for hardy fish for cycling like danios, tetras, rasboras for these fish are able to handle extremitie sin the temperature, chemical changes etc or just plain old beginners mistakes - and with that hardship comes having to breathe a bit more through their gills (for water (oxygen) is constantly going through their gills (how a fish breathes - most fish anyway), so the point is, if there is too much ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the water, it is harder for the fish to breathe - another reason for the vast amount of water change.

Anyway, as you can see, I can go and on about this. Main thing is, use common sense or reasoning. Better just to use reasoning. And just think of yourself diving into a pool with 75% ammonia in it, would you like it? Well just think if the fish could tell us how they feel?

look forward to BillMahoney's end result...good thread

*L* I'm not even reading all of that longwinded post *L* Its the same stuff over and over, and i'll keep saying the same thing over...

So as i said way back, to each his own and i'll beg to differ on your idea and you can do the same for me

it's cool Alasse...that's right, to each their own

Yep that why i thought i'd just let it go *L*

We all do things in this hobby that works for us, people should and do give advice by thier own experiences

I would suspect by now BillMahoney's tank water is clear (((smiles)))