Might have a lead on a bigger tank...
15 posts • Page 1 of 2
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JB20High9473 - Posts: 58
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 am
Might have a lead on a bigger tank...
So I might be getting a 55 gallon tank. This would be the new home of my angels. The question is, and yes I have looked at the compatibility charts, what would be some nice playmates? Adult sizes in mind of course, and nothing that eats live plants, to the point of killing them anyways, as I want to plant it as well. I am thinking it would make a nice home for a freshwater crab too. They just look so cool running arround pinching at the gravel all day. LOL
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JB20High9473 - Posts: 58
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 am
So I got the tank. Setting it up and actually putting fish in is a month or so out until I have time and have it planned out.
The fish list looks like the following(so far):
Dwarf Gourami ( a pair)
Bolivian Rams (a Pair)
Angelfish (2)
Polka-Dot Loaches (4)
Thats where it stands now. Had kuhli loaches on the list but the eel-like body got them cut by the wife... Any other recomendations that would mix in well are appreciated. Now I have to start with the plants.
The fish list looks like the following(so far):
Dwarf Gourami ( a pair)
Bolivian Rams (a Pair)
Angelfish (2)
Polka-Dot Loaches (4)
Thats where it stands now. Had kuhli loaches on the list but the eel-like body got them cut by the wife... Any other recomendations that would mix in well are appreciated. Now I have to start with the plants.
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
I looked throughout the fish books I have, and it appears the fish you have in your list are compatible.
Now as you may know by now, Angelfish are a semi-agressive whereas all the other fish you name are peaceful, but the key to this nightmare is, quantity. With a 55 gallon, you should be fine. Keep your fish in groups of 4-8 except for the Gourami which do best in pairs.
Also, all these fish will need live plants (as you mentioned...anubias (which I have many of) are best, easy to care for, very slow growers, but need little lighting and can handle most water conditions.
You will also need caves especially for the Ram. Caves provdie protecttion as well as a place to lay eggs or live fry.
With the Polka Dot Loach, it needs a high water movement, so on one side of the tank you can set up a few airstones for this fish to feel more at home. But you will also want open space for the Angelfish for they do grow to about 6".
Key to setting up the tank. Plan the entire tank out on paper with air pumps, filters etc too. Beings you have Angelfish, you may be okay with the cycling of the 55 gallon. You can take some of the gravel with good bacteria from the tank you have and place it into the 55 gallon tank. And you will need a good stand, wrought iron is best (you can usually get these for a 55 gal at about $50.00 new).
Freshwater Red Claw Crab may be okay, being they do not grow more than an inch and a half. I never had crabs. I have had ghost shrimp, trumpet and olive nerite snails...but crabs, nope. But they should be okay.
I alway recommend an online site, the p/s handling is very cheap, around $9.95 for a total order, the site is Dr Fosters & Smith. I buy about 90% of all my aquatic needs from this online site. Check it out, even if you do not buy anything from them, you will get a good idea of what you may want and need for the tank.
55 gallon in my book is the minimum any aquarist should start with. 40 gallon is pushing it. 55 gallon is best for beginners. (I plan to purchase a 180 beginning next year, it will take up the entire wall by the windows for I will choose a 180 long, but the possibilities for a home aquarist is almost endless. I figured when I got into this hobby, that if I can keep a healthy tank for a good 2 years, I will move up in size. Also I figured, if I can last for another 3 years with the 180 gallon, I will either go brackish or saltwater thereafter. Only time will tell.)
It's a great hobby, and I am very happy you are enthusiastic about this hobby as much as the members of this forum are as well as oitside this forum. I am sure in time, your family will appreciate and understand that the simplicity of a tank of fish and/or other living species is a very splendid addition to any home. And in a philosophical vein, all us humans can relate, without water...well, we'd be like a fish without......you get the drift.
Hope you get that 55 gallon asap, you will really like it, I promise you this.
If you have any other questions do not hesitate to ask.
Now as you may know by now, Angelfish are a semi-agressive whereas all the other fish you name are peaceful, but the key to this nightmare is, quantity. With a 55 gallon, you should be fine. Keep your fish in groups of 4-8 except for the Gourami which do best in pairs.
Also, all these fish will need live plants (as you mentioned...anubias (which I have many of) are best, easy to care for, very slow growers, but need little lighting and can handle most water conditions.
You will also need caves especially for the Ram. Caves provdie protecttion as well as a place to lay eggs or live fry.
With the Polka Dot Loach, it needs a high water movement, so on one side of the tank you can set up a few airstones for this fish to feel more at home. But you will also want open space for the Angelfish for they do grow to about 6".
Key to setting up the tank. Plan the entire tank out on paper with air pumps, filters etc too. Beings you have Angelfish, you may be okay with the cycling of the 55 gallon. You can take some of the gravel with good bacteria from the tank you have and place it into the 55 gallon tank. And you will need a good stand, wrought iron is best (you can usually get these for a 55 gal at about $50.00 new).
Freshwater Red Claw Crab may be okay, being they do not grow more than an inch and a half. I never had crabs. I have had ghost shrimp, trumpet and olive nerite snails...but crabs, nope. But they should be okay.
I alway recommend an online site, the p/s handling is very cheap, around $9.95 for a total order, the site is Dr Fosters & Smith. I buy about 90% of all my aquatic needs from this online site. Check it out, even if you do not buy anything from them, you will get a good idea of what you may want and need for the tank.
55 gallon in my book is the minimum any aquarist should start with. 40 gallon is pushing it. 55 gallon is best for beginners. (I plan to purchase a 180 beginning next year, it will take up the entire wall by the windows for I will choose a 180 long, but the possibilities for a home aquarist is almost endless. I figured when I got into this hobby, that if I can keep a healthy tank for a good 2 years, I will move up in size. Also I figured, if I can last for another 3 years with the 180 gallon, I will either go brackish or saltwater thereafter. Only time will tell.)
It's a great hobby, and I am very happy you are enthusiastic about this hobby as much as the members of this forum are as well as oitside this forum. I am sure in time, your family will appreciate and understand that the simplicity of a tank of fish and/or other living species is a very splendid addition to any home. And in a philosophical vein, all us humans can relate, without water...well, we'd be like a fish without......you get the drift.
Hope you get that 55 gallon asap, you will really like it, I promise you this.
If you have any other questions do not hesitate to ask.
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dizzcat - Posts: 648
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am
I have to correct one thing Yash said.
"You will also need caves especially for the Ram. Caves provide protection as well as a place to lay eggs or live fry"
Rams actually don't spawn in caves. They are substrate spawners so you need to provide a few flat rocks for them. Mine prefer to hang out under a big Amazon sword over caves that driftwood and such make. I have tried many caves and they just ignore them. I think they are one of the few SA cichlids that don't prefer caves. In fact, if there is anything close to their egg rock, they will uproot it!
He wont need to use any online sites to order fish. I have steered him to a wonderful lfs that is very clean, well cared for and I have never gotten a sick fish from. It is where I get all my fish and they will order one if needed. These people actually know what they are talking about! And if one doesn't, they tell you to ask the other person. Instead of giving bad advice, they will tell you I don't know, but will look into for you. They helped me out in the beginning and helped me set up healthy tanks.
"You will also need caves especially for the Ram. Caves provide protection as well as a place to lay eggs or live fry"
Rams actually don't spawn in caves. They are substrate spawners so you need to provide a few flat rocks for them. Mine prefer to hang out under a big Amazon sword over caves that driftwood and such make. I have tried many caves and they just ignore them. I think they are one of the few SA cichlids that don't prefer caves. In fact, if there is anything close to their egg rock, they will uproot it!
He wont need to use any online sites to order fish. I have steered him to a wonderful lfs that is very clean, well cared for and I have never gotten a sick fish from. It is where I get all my fish and they will order one if needed. These people actually know what they are talking about! And if one doesn't, they tell you to ask the other person. Instead of giving bad advice, they will tell you I don't know, but will look into for you. They helped me out in the beginning and helped me set up healthy tanks.
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JB20High9473 - Posts: 58
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:21 am
Thanks for all the info! I am looking forward to the 55 very much, but for me this is really a big tank. So I plan on being very meticulous with it's planning. I am not really planning on starting the fishless cycle until about this time next month as I want everything the tank needs and a solid plan for how it will be done up.
I have thought a good deal about the angels needing the space to swim with their long fins , but at the same time giving the other fish plenty of plants to keep them happy. My best anwser to this is creating lush areas of the tank along the back and two sides, along with a planted, probably moss and one other not to tall plant, tunnel rock in the foreground. I am going to visit relatives in Norfolk VA in a week and a half so I am going to be trying for some nice Driftwood when I am there. I like the idea of having the submerged trunk effect either almost centered in the background, or set into a corner. The deal with that peice is that I want it to almost emulate mangrove roots, and at the same time give cover and cave action to some of the fish. For the angels this set-up would allow for almost a racetrack oval arround the middle "island" that would span a nice chunk of the tank. They are after all the only fish I currently own and their growth is why the upgrade is taking place, at least thats what the wife needs to think :P. Now the open area will probably have a few areas of river type rock, alot like what Dizz uses for her spawning rocks, but I want to keep it empty of any tall plants that might hinder the angels. this will also keep the Rams from uprooting plants that might have been planted near the rocks.
Will this be ok? I mean it will still have plenty of plants for the fish that need that, and yet give the angel plenty of freedom to roam about and get the excersie they need. Another thing is don't Rams pair off as well? I thought I read that having odd numbers or two mails in a tank too small will cause some fighting. If thats the case shouldn't I keep only a pair of them too?
Plants wise I am still doing my homework. I want a tall plant that I can give some cover with in the rear corners(or just one corner if I go with the "tree trunk" effect in the corner instead of centered). Moss growing in the center area and on the drift wood looks very natural too, so thats a big must. I am not going to flood the tank with light as its more for the fish then the plants, so I will be at or just near 2 watts/gal. This seems to be the sweet spot from what I have read with regards to decent but not crazy growth. Not to mention algea control.
I still have alot more to work out, but I have a picture in my head and I like what I see so far :)
JB
I have thought a good deal about the angels needing the space to swim with their long fins , but at the same time giving the other fish plenty of plants to keep them happy. My best anwser to this is creating lush areas of the tank along the back and two sides, along with a planted, probably moss and one other not to tall plant, tunnel rock in the foreground. I am going to visit relatives in Norfolk VA in a week and a half so I am going to be trying for some nice Driftwood when I am there. I like the idea of having the submerged trunk effect either almost centered in the background, or set into a corner. The deal with that peice is that I want it to almost emulate mangrove roots, and at the same time give cover and cave action to some of the fish. For the angels this set-up would allow for almost a racetrack oval arround the middle "island" that would span a nice chunk of the tank. They are after all the only fish I currently own and their growth is why the upgrade is taking place, at least thats what the wife needs to think :P. Now the open area will probably have a few areas of river type rock, alot like what Dizz uses for her spawning rocks, but I want to keep it empty of any tall plants that might hinder the angels. this will also keep the Rams from uprooting plants that might have been planted near the rocks.
Will this be ok? I mean it will still have plenty of plants for the fish that need that, and yet give the angel plenty of freedom to roam about and get the excersie they need. Another thing is don't Rams pair off as well? I thought I read that having odd numbers or two mails in a tank too small will cause some fighting. If thats the case shouldn't I keep only a pair of them too?
Plants wise I am still doing my homework. I want a tall plant that I can give some cover with in the rear corners(or just one corner if I go with the "tree trunk" effect in the corner instead of centered). Moss growing in the center area and on the drift wood looks very natural too, so thats a big must. I am not going to flood the tank with light as its more for the fish then the plants, so I will be at or just near 2 watts/gal. This seems to be the sweet spot from what I have read with regards to decent but not crazy growth. Not to mention algea control.
I still have alot more to work out, but I have a picture in my head and I like what I see so far :)
JB
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
dizzcat, I wrote: "You will also need caves especially for the Ram. Caves provide protection as well as a place to lay eggs or live fry"
"a place to lay eggs or live fry" was not meant for the Ram, but that caves can be used for fish to give birth. Maybe I should have phrased that differently.
"a place to lay eggs or live fry" was not meant for the Ram, but that caves can be used for fish to give birth. Maybe I should have phrased that differently.
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yasherkoach - Posts: 1306
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:24 pm
JB
if you do get natural driftwood you must, that is, YOU MUST boil it when you get home. Not only does boiling take out as much tannis as possible (the wood can make the water brown) but also you boil it to get as much bacteria or germs off the wood. Also it helps it soak up enough water so it anchors itself.
I boil all my wood. And I go to a landscape shop (in Bixby OK, there's a place called Hardscapes), I buy all the river rock, pebbles for 10 cent a pound. The thing about natural rocks is that you must make sure that won't raise your PH thru the roof. Rocks such as slate, sandstone, will work well (I use these types of rock). The way you find out if the rock is okay is, you take a teaspoon of vinegar and place it on the rock, if it fizzes, the rock is no good. And again, you must, I repeat, you must boil the rocks, pebbles etc.
Anubias plants come in different types, these plants require low light and can handle most water conditions, that is, when you first set up your tank, while it is cycling, these plants can handle the fluctuations in water conditions (carbon dioxide, iron, phosphate, possible salt released from non-boiled rocks (by the way, get a huge stew pot, boil the rocks and wood for least 30 minutes), temperature, ph, etc), whereas some other plants must have huge amounts of light and C02 nourishment.
Like you said, plan ahead. The nice thing about getting first into this hobby is planning. The more research you do the better off you will be.
For instance, I started thinking about the fish hobby in 2002...it wasn't until April 2008 that I actually started gathering material for the fish tank. It's a serious hobby, more serious than people think. Most people think of the fish hobby as a goldfish in a fish bowl (which to me, by the way, is downright cruelty). So it is good to see you are planning ahead.
And yes, Bolivan Rams as far as I know form pairs that last a lifetime like Dwarf Gouramis.
If you feel more comfortable getting fish from a local fish store (lfs) go for it as dizz mentioned. Whatever works best works.
It is good to see you taking this hobby serious, I wish others did too.
any other questions please do not hesitate to ask
if you do get natural driftwood you must, that is, YOU MUST boil it when you get home. Not only does boiling take out as much tannis as possible (the wood can make the water brown) but also you boil it to get as much bacteria or germs off the wood. Also it helps it soak up enough water so it anchors itself.
I boil all my wood. And I go to a landscape shop (in Bixby OK, there's a place called Hardscapes), I buy all the river rock, pebbles for 10 cent a pound. The thing about natural rocks is that you must make sure that won't raise your PH thru the roof. Rocks such as slate, sandstone, will work well (I use these types of rock). The way you find out if the rock is okay is, you take a teaspoon of vinegar and place it on the rock, if it fizzes, the rock is no good. And again, you must, I repeat, you must boil the rocks, pebbles etc.
Anubias plants come in different types, these plants require low light and can handle most water conditions, that is, when you first set up your tank, while it is cycling, these plants can handle the fluctuations in water conditions (carbon dioxide, iron, phosphate, possible salt released from non-boiled rocks (by the way, get a huge stew pot, boil the rocks and wood for least 30 minutes), temperature, ph, etc), whereas some other plants must have huge amounts of light and C02 nourishment.
Like you said, plan ahead. The nice thing about getting first into this hobby is planning. The more research you do the better off you will be.
For instance, I started thinking about the fish hobby in 2002...it wasn't until April 2008 that I actually started gathering material for the fish tank. It's a serious hobby, more serious than people think. Most people think of the fish hobby as a goldfish in a fish bowl (which to me, by the way, is downright cruelty). So it is good to see you are planning ahead.
And yes, Bolivan Rams as far as I know form pairs that last a lifetime like Dwarf Gouramis.
If you feel more comfortable getting fish from a local fish store (lfs) go for it as dizz mentioned. Whatever works best works.
It is good to see you taking this hobby serious, I wish others did too.
any other questions please do not hesitate to ask
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dizzcat - Posts: 648
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am
"this will also keep the Rams from uprooting plants that might have been planted near the rocks."
Well, this sometimes works with mine LOL. They pretty much leave the plants alone until they start to dig pits for their newly hatched fry (wigglers). Mine prefer to dig a pit in the roots of a plant. What I have done to keep them from uprooting all of my plants is tie the stem to a small rock (I use fishing line) and bury the rock under the sand. That way they can dig, but I don't find plants floating every day. I put my small river rocks along the sides of the tank so that when they do spawn I don't have to move it to put up a divider. Also, if you plan on Rams, use a sand substrate. When they spawn they dig small pits in the substrate to put the newly hatched fry in. If you have a rock substrate, they will loose all the wigglers in it. They are not very good diggers.
"Another thing is don't Rams pair off as well? I thought I read that having odd numbers or two mails in a tank too small will cause some fighting. If that's the case shouldn't I keep only a pair of them too?"
Yes, they do. If you get small juveniles, start with about 4 or 5. As they grow they will start to pair up. You cannot force a pair. When you have your pair, you can take the others to Seascape and she will sell them for you and give you store credit when they do. They are so hard to tell male from female until they are almost full grown! I am not sure how 2 pairs in a 55 would work out. It might. I started with 2 girls and one male and he paired up with one female. I took the odd one to the lfs and mine have been paired up since. Once they paired they no longer tolerated the odd female. They will also become intolerant to their fry when they get big enough. But, I only have them in a 30 gallon, so not sure how a bigger tank would work out.
Yash is so right, boil the rocks and wood, then boil them again!! It took forever to get the tannis (turns the water brown) out of a small chunk I had, but only took one boiling for my big piece. I guess it depends on the wood.
Your setup sounds like a good plan! Moss is a good idea. I know my smaller fish pick little micro food out of it. My Tetras and danios will also bury themselves in my chunk of Java Moss and roll around in it when they spawn. Pretty neat! Moss is great for fry because it holds tiny foods.
Here is a cool site that has good info on plants. Will tell you if a certain plant needs high light or co2, etc. I have had bad luck with stem plants and I can't figure out why! I do best with the sword plants like Amazon and melon swords.
http://www.plantgeek.net/
"Most people think of the fish hobby as a goldfish in a fish bowl (which to me, by the way, is downright cruelty).."
Yeah, agree 100%! Fish are living creatures and need as much care as a cat or dog, I wish everyone would see that. I read somewhere that keeping a fish in a bowl without a filter or not doing enough water changes is the same as making a person live in an outhouse with no windows! The gasses build up until we could not stand it anymore. I will have to find that article, it was a wonderful example.
Well, this sometimes works with mine LOL. They pretty much leave the plants alone until they start to dig pits for their newly hatched fry (wigglers). Mine prefer to dig a pit in the roots of a plant. What I have done to keep them from uprooting all of my plants is tie the stem to a small rock (I use fishing line) and bury the rock under the sand. That way they can dig, but I don't find plants floating every day. I put my small river rocks along the sides of the tank so that when they do spawn I don't have to move it to put up a divider. Also, if you plan on Rams, use a sand substrate. When they spawn they dig small pits in the substrate to put the newly hatched fry in. If you have a rock substrate, they will loose all the wigglers in it. They are not very good diggers.
"Another thing is don't Rams pair off as well? I thought I read that having odd numbers or two mails in a tank too small will cause some fighting. If that's the case shouldn't I keep only a pair of them too?"
Yes, they do. If you get small juveniles, start with about 4 or 5. As they grow they will start to pair up. You cannot force a pair. When you have your pair, you can take the others to Seascape and she will sell them for you and give you store credit when they do. They are so hard to tell male from female until they are almost full grown! I am not sure how 2 pairs in a 55 would work out. It might. I started with 2 girls and one male and he paired up with one female. I took the odd one to the lfs and mine have been paired up since. Once they paired they no longer tolerated the odd female. They will also become intolerant to their fry when they get big enough. But, I only have them in a 30 gallon, so not sure how a bigger tank would work out.
Yash is so right, boil the rocks and wood, then boil them again!! It took forever to get the tannis (turns the water brown) out of a small chunk I had, but only took one boiling for my big piece. I guess it depends on the wood.
Your setup sounds like a good plan! Moss is a good idea. I know my smaller fish pick little micro food out of it. My Tetras and danios will also bury themselves in my chunk of Java Moss and roll around in it when they spawn. Pretty neat! Moss is great for fry because it holds tiny foods.
Here is a cool site that has good info on plants. Will tell you if a certain plant needs high light or co2, etc. I have had bad luck with stem plants and I can't figure out why! I do best with the sword plants like Amazon and melon swords.
http://www.plantgeek.net/
"Most people think of the fish hobby as a goldfish in a fish bowl (which to me, by the way, is downright cruelty).."
Yeah, agree 100%! Fish are living creatures and need as much care as a cat or dog, I wish everyone would see that. I read somewhere that keeping a fish in a bowl without a filter or not doing enough water changes is the same as making a person live in an outhouse with no windows! The gasses build up until we could not stand it anymore. I will have to find that article, it was a wonderful example.
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jb20high - Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 2:02 pm
Ok. So start out with 4 or 5 rams. I should have room for that, especially while they are young. As for plants I will try to avoid the stemed ones since if you can't grow em chances are pretty good I won't even get them home alive! Hehe.
As for boiling the wood, I am gona try the dishwasher thing and boil. How do you check to see if it worked? I mean can I just fill the sink with water and put the wood in it for an hour to see if its drained? If not what is the process?
I haven't had a chance to get to Seascape yet, but will be trying to make the trip this weekend. On a side note the 20 high is running smooth. The tests are coming up good just about everyday, and on the off days a 10-15% water change puts things back in line. The tetras are finally finding their way into the more open water to my duaghter's delight. The angels are all about some freeze dried blood wurms(2-3 times a week), and the big one sees me coming and probably watches me as much as I watch him. I really adore that fish:). You think the lfs will take one, either the blue or gold, species of neon tetra off my hands? If not I can always add them to the big tank, but chance are they will ed up eaten and thats no fun for them. I am going to need a couple otos in the 20 I think I think, and don't want to overdose the tank. If anyone can think of amore soliatry and small catfish tha would work too. I am noticing some algea growh now, and want to keep their little home clean.
Anyways I couldn't have done it without yall and I appreciate all the help!
JB
As for boiling the wood, I am gona try the dishwasher thing and boil. How do you check to see if it worked? I mean can I just fill the sink with water and put the wood in it for an hour to see if its drained? If not what is the process?
I haven't had a chance to get to Seascape yet, but will be trying to make the trip this weekend. On a side note the 20 high is running smooth. The tests are coming up good just about everyday, and on the off days a 10-15% water change puts things back in line. The tetras are finally finding their way into the more open water to my duaghter's delight. The angels are all about some freeze dried blood wurms(2-3 times a week), and the big one sees me coming and probably watches me as much as I watch him. I really adore that fish:). You think the lfs will take one, either the blue or gold, species of neon tetra off my hands? If not I can always add them to the big tank, but chance are they will ed up eaten and thats no fun for them. I am going to need a couple otos in the 20 I think I think, and don't want to overdose the tank. If anyone can think of amore soliatry and small catfish tha would work too. I am noticing some algea growh now, and want to keep their little home clean.
Anyways I couldn't have done it without yall and I appreciate all the help!
JB
