Mouthbrooders - advice?
8 posts
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rmcardle8032 - Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:52 am
Mouthbrooders - advice?
I had two fish spawn last night, the female has the eggs in her mouth. What steps do I need to take from here? Should I keep her in the main tank with the other fish or should I isolate her in a small tank? How long before the eggs hatch? Will the mother survive not eating with the fry in her mouth? What do the fry eat? How long before I can add the fry to the main tank if I chose that route? Any advice appreciated.
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fihsboy - Posts: 1837
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:20 pm
Get brine shrimp asap. You need to hatch fresh. That would be best. But it takes three days to hatch them. So if you can find some already hatched. Or instant brine shrimp will work too. Its about 15 bucks for a tiny jar.....and they arent alive......but they are primo shrimps. Never had any babies in my tank.....so good luck!
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Burgerking7679 - Posts: 112
- Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:53 pm
Rmcradle, what type of fish is holding?? African Cichlid, or SW fish?? I assume its an african cichlid based on your profile, my answer will deal with cichlids BTW.
I would remove the mother and put her in a hospital tank or something like that. Cant remember the actual number of days until the eggs hatch but its around 3 or 4. Mothers usually survive without eating, if they get really hungry they usually swallow the fry.
Depending on the age of the fish, they may hold for the full term(about 3 weeks) and spit when ready, or, typically with younger fish, either spit early(usually resulting in the death of the fry), hold for too long(resulting in the death of the fish holding) or swallow the whole brood.
To avoid the problems related with young brooders I strip at around 15 days, stripping is when you remove the fry manually from the mother. Here is a link that explains it pretty well... http://cichlid-forum.com/videos/stripping.php
Just a side note...
based on the stock of your tank, I can see a lot of future problems in your tank. Your zebras will constantly fight and crossbreed with one another and with the labs, the venustus and blue dolphins will outgrow the tank, and the crabro and demasoni are really aggressive. Also, demasoni are best kept in groups of 12 or more.
I would remove the mother and put her in a hospital tank or something like that. Cant remember the actual number of days until the eggs hatch but its around 3 or 4. Mothers usually survive without eating, if they get really hungry they usually swallow the fry.
Depending on the age of the fish, they may hold for the full term(about 3 weeks) and spit when ready, or, typically with younger fish, either spit early(usually resulting in the death of the fry), hold for too long(resulting in the death of the fish holding) or swallow the whole brood.
To avoid the problems related with young brooders I strip at around 15 days, stripping is when you remove the fry manually from the mother. Here is a link that explains it pretty well... http://cichlid-forum.com/videos/stripping.php
Just a side note...
based on the stock of your tank, I can see a lot of future problems in your tank. Your zebras will constantly fight and crossbreed with one another and with the labs, the venustus and blue dolphins will outgrow the tank, and the crabro and demasoni are really aggressive. Also, demasoni are best kept in groups of 12 or more.
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dizzcat - Posts: 648
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am
She will be just fine not eating. They hold for about 21 days. They will get kind of thin, but they are fine. Which 2 spawned??
You can do one of two things.
1) Leave her alone and let her spit in the main tank. Just make sure there is a couple of rock piles they can hide in. I use small chunks of Lava rock and pack them together real tight. If I can fit my finger in a gap, a fish can fit its head. They stay in there, then dart out to grab food. I have a Yellow Lab holding in the main tank right now because my fry tanks are full.
2) You can catch her and let her stay in a small tank alone till she spits. I usually wait a few days before I try to catch mine, because they are more likely to swallow the eggs if you try right away, especially first time moms I give my girls a small cave or PVC pipe to hang out in. They stay real quiet in their own tank. When the fry have developed all the way the mom will start releasing them. It can take a couple days before she lets them all go. Then you can leave her with them a couple days so she can eat. When you see fry, try adding a pellet or two to see if she will eat. If she doesn't she still has fry in her mouth.
When the fry are released, they can be fed either Baby Brine Shrimp, (you don't need to hatch them, you can buy it in frozen cubes found in packets at the lfs in the frozen section, about $4), or regular flake food that has been crushed to a powder. Mouth brooder fry are a lot bigger then other fry when its time to eat. I only feed mine the bbs for a couple days before switching over to the crushed flake foods. These fry do not eat anything until they are released at 21 days, the live off the egg sacks. . I have found that they really don't need the bbs the way SA cichlid fry do because they are so much bigger.
Its safest to wait a couple months before putting them in the main tank. I wait till mine are at least an inch or they get munched.
You have probably heard of people who strip the eggs from the mom's mouth. I would not advise you to until you have had experience with fry. Also I wouldn't do that on a first time mom.
I wanted to know what went on in the mouth as they hold them, so I built an egg tumbler to simulate the way the mother rolls the eggs. It was real cool to watch. I waited to do this until she was on her 10th batch, and I had raised a few batches of fry. Here is what goes on in there and how the fry develops. If you hit reply at the top of this post you can see some pics.
Pic 1 is day 6 after spawn
Pic 2 is 9 days after spawn
Pic 3 is 12 days after spawn
Pic 4 is 15 days after spawn.
You can do one of two things.
1) Leave her alone and let her spit in the main tank. Just make sure there is a couple of rock piles they can hide in. I use small chunks of Lava rock and pack them together real tight. If I can fit my finger in a gap, a fish can fit its head. They stay in there, then dart out to grab food. I have a Yellow Lab holding in the main tank right now because my fry tanks are full.
2) You can catch her and let her stay in a small tank alone till she spits. I usually wait a few days before I try to catch mine, because they are more likely to swallow the eggs if you try right away, especially first time moms I give my girls a small cave or PVC pipe to hang out in. They stay real quiet in their own tank. When the fry have developed all the way the mom will start releasing them. It can take a couple days before she lets them all go. Then you can leave her with them a couple days so she can eat. When you see fry, try adding a pellet or two to see if she will eat. If she doesn't she still has fry in her mouth.
When the fry are released, they can be fed either Baby Brine Shrimp, (you don't need to hatch them, you can buy it in frozen cubes found in packets at the lfs in the frozen section, about $4), or regular flake food that has been crushed to a powder. Mouth brooder fry are a lot bigger then other fry when its time to eat. I only feed mine the bbs for a couple days before switching over to the crushed flake foods. These fry do not eat anything until they are released at 21 days, the live off the egg sacks. . I have found that they really don't need the bbs the way SA cichlid fry do because they are so much bigger.
Its safest to wait a couple months before putting them in the main tank. I wait till mine are at least an inch or they get munched.
You have probably heard of people who strip the eggs from the mom's mouth. I would not advise you to until you have had experience with fry. Also I wouldn't do that on a first time mom.
I wanted to know what went on in the mouth as they hold them, so I built an egg tumbler to simulate the way the mother rolls the eggs. It was real cool to watch. I waited to do this until she was on her 10th batch, and I had raised a few batches of fry. Here is what goes on in there and how the fry develops. If you hit reply at the top of this post you can see some pics.
Pic 1 is day 6 after spawn
Pic 2 is 9 days after spawn
Pic 3 is 12 days after spawn
Pic 4 is 15 days after spawn.
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dizzcat - Posts: 648
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am
Here's some little videos of the fry as they grow inside the mom's mouth. As you can see, they feed off the egg yokes still attached to them. When the yoke is all gone, that is when the mom releases them.
These pics and vids are a mix of Red Zebra fry and Yellow Lab fry. .
Right after I stripped my Red Zebra mom. Day 6 after the spawn:
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... dsDay6.flv
This is day 9 since spawn: Labs
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... erDay9.flv
This is day 11 since spawn: Reds
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... =Day11.flv
Day 15: Labs
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... ay15-1.flv
And on day 19 (Labs) I put them in a breeders net in the fry tank and started feeding them some BBS. This is about the time some will start escaping mom's mouth. You can see some have used up the egg yolk and some still have some. I think they are stronger than the ones the mom's hold and I know they grew a couple days faster. I am thinking its because they could swim in the tumbler.
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... sDay17.flv
Just wanted to share that with you. My Yellow lab is on day 11 since she spawned and I can go into my pics and see what size etc the fry are now in her mouth. I probably wont use a tumbler again, I just wanted to see what went on. :-)
If you hit reply you can see my mom's in the 10 gallon fry tank while holding. Also a pic of the Yellow fry at 2 weeks since being released, there is also a newly released Red fry, he's above them, and a 2 month old Bolivian Ram fry. The last one is the group of Yellow Lab fry I had in the breeders net. They still had a little egg yoke left.
My fry tank is pretty bare. It has a thin layer of sand, a couple fake plants and a small rock pile. When a mom is in there I will put a piece of pvc or a small pot for her to hang in.
These pics and vids are a mix of Red Zebra fry and Yellow Lab fry. .
Right after I stripped my Red Zebra mom. Day 6 after the spawn:
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... dsDay6.flv
This is day 9 since spawn: Labs
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... erDay9.flv
This is day 11 since spawn: Reds
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... =Day11.flv
Day 15: Labs
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... ay15-1.flv
And on day 19 (Labs) I put them in a breeders net in the fry tank and started feeding them some BBS. This is about the time some will start escaping mom's mouth. You can see some have used up the egg yolk and some still have some. I think they are stronger than the ones the mom's hold and I know they grew a couple days faster. I am thinking its because they could swim in the tumbler.
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... sDay17.flv
Just wanted to share that with you. My Yellow lab is on day 11 since she spawned and I can go into my pics and see what size etc the fry are now in her mouth. I probably wont use a tumbler again, I just wanted to see what went on. :-)
If you hit reply you can see my mom's in the 10 gallon fry tank while holding. Also a pic of the Yellow fry at 2 weeks since being released, there is also a newly released Red fry, he's above them, and a 2 month old Bolivian Ram fry. The last one is the group of Yellow Lab fry I had in the breeders net. They still had a little egg yoke left.
My fry tank is pretty bare. It has a thin layer of sand, a couple fake plants and a small rock pile. When a mom is in there I will put a piece of pvc or a small pot for her to hang in.
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rmcardle8032 - Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:52 am
Thank you for the detailed information, It is very helpful. I picked up a 29 gallon to act as my " birthing " tank and I have a 5 gallon tank for the mother to recuperate after spitting the fry. I hope the 29 gallon is sufficient to raise the fry until they reach a size i can add to my main tank or sale to lfs.. Either way, its an exciting process to go through the first time. Now if I can find a place for a larger community tank, id be set..
Randy
Randy
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dizzcat - Posts: 648
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am
A 29 gallon is plenty big enough to raise fry. Most lfs take them at 1 1/2 - 2".
Which fish is holding?
Your Demasoni should be OK as long as its a single one. You either have 1 or 15. I have one and he gets along great with everyone. The aggression they are known for is towards their own kind. So if you have less than 12-15 the dominant one will kill off all the rest. With one guy, they just hang out with everyone else. I love mine and sometimes wish I could have a couple more, but know he will kill them. Bummer!
Watch your Bubble Bees tho, they get very aggressive when they mature. Also the Electric Blue Johanni, these are a couple of the most aggressive Africans.
Which fish is holding?
Your Demasoni should be OK as long as its a single one. You either have 1 or 15. I have one and he gets along great with everyone. The aggression they are known for is towards their own kind. So if you have less than 12-15 the dominant one will kill off all the rest. With one guy, they just hang out with everyone else. I love mine and sometimes wish I could have a couple more, but know he will kill them. Bummer!
Watch your Bubble Bees tho, they get very aggressive when they mature. Also the Electric Blue Johanni, these are a couple of the most aggressive Africans.
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rmcardle8032 - Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:52 am
The pseudo red top zebra is holding since Saturday night. I had 1 male Demasoni die, the female is still doing well. The crabbo's get a little aggressive but the Red Top Male that mated runs the tank. But i have to say all in all they get along. Im anxious to see what happens as the get bigger. My plan is to eventually pull the blue Dolphins and venustus in to their own tank i hope to get in the fall... Thanks again, ill post some pictures when the fry hatch..